Cult of Kaori Founder: ‘I’d Love to Create the Scent of Outer Space or Something Otherworldly’
Chris Undi, the nose behind the indie fragrance brand, shares his story and thoughts on perfume creation.
Postmodern Perfumer — Matt: Hi Chris, thank you for taking the time for an interview with me. I’ve been eagerly following the development of your fragrance brand, Cult of Kaori, and your first launch on Instagram. What are you working on at the moment?
Cult of Kaori — Chris Undi: Currently, I’m working on a matcha green tea and wasabi ice cream fragrance based on one of my favorite desserts in Japan. Who knows if it will end up in the collection, but I have to constantly experiment and take risks.
When I think about your Japanese brand name and your Japan-centric compositions, I inevitably come to the conclusion that you must have a deep connection to the country. How did that start?
It’s a longer story, but my connection started very young. After I was born, my parents stopped at a sushi restaurant right outside of the hospital. My family befriended the owners, two identical twin sushi chefs from Tokyo. The restaurant was called Kawabata, and it was located in Northeast Philadelphia where I was raised.
Growing up, I practiced calligraphy, later watched sumo wrestling, and when I came of age, I would buy the owners Budweiser while they, in turn, would offer me saké. They were equally enthralled with American culture while teaching me nuances of Japanese culture — the seasonality of ingredients, bringing the outside in, and many other life philosophies.
Eventually, I started to learn the language, and my family and I would travel to many parts of Japan. Now, as a parent of 3 wonderful boys, I’m happy that they too share the same appreciation of the culture, food, and traditions.
Would you share some of the ingredients you use in your matcha and wasabi scents?
I only just started on those, so it might be too soon to share. Creating accords is a combination of smelling the real material and trialing attempts to match it.
In regards to the wasabi accord, I’m playing around with things like vanillyl acetone to give you the sharp spice note, dimethyl sulfide, and or dibutyl sulfide for the mustard note that comes from wasabi, among others.
There is a specific aroma compound that makes wasabi unique, but the molecule is so volatile and fleeting that I don’t know if I will use it. I hear it evaporates insanely fast, and you’re almost throwing money away with it.
As for matcha, there are a lot of interpretations of it within perfume. And honestly, I don’t think many of them smell like the matcha powder that I’m after.
So I’m looking at scientific papers that detail the aroma compounds of matcha. Then I will discern which ingredients to buy/use and begin trialing, as that’s the job of the perfumer — to experiment and reveal the artistic expression you’re aiming for based on your creative/scent brief.
I should note that apparently, this is not common — independent perfumers trying to decipher a natural material through a GCMS report and creating an accord from it. At the bigger houses like IFF, Givaudan, etc., there’s typically a scientist that does this part, and the perfumer simply uses the accord within their creation.
I’m also working on a tatami mat accord for use in a fougere, but that one is proving to be difficult, so I wouldn’t anticipate seeing it for a year or two. The reason I bring it up is that surprisingly, matcha, green tea, tatami, wasabi, and even saké all share an alarming amount of similar ingredients.
Apparently, many green teas have small amounts of wasabi added for flavor enhancement, a random fact. Once you go down the rabbit hole of curiosity, it’s hard to stop.
I’m glad you bring that up. You really need to be a jack of all trades as an indie perfumer, especially in the first years.
It all comes down to your ability to learn. Have you established some kind of system for yourself to successfully acquire new expert knowledge? Or is it a spontaneous, creative process?
I have a running list of fragrance ideas/concepts that will take me years to produce because it’s never just focusing on one fragrance. For me, I break things into smaller steps of creating accords around an idea. Then I can be more free and experimental when it comes to formulating.
As for acquiring expert knowledge, I am always learning. I tend to go for the more difficult challenges — it’s not intentional, but it’s just what I end up doing.
The saké accord I created for Melon Masu, for example, is not one often used in perfumery because it’s difficult to recreate. Typically, I’ll research to see if anyone has written a scientific paper around the aroma compounds of a particular subject, then review and trial my formula using my best judgment.
Other times, I smell the live material, write down words that describe what I smell, and then correlate those words with similar ingredients in my perfumer’s organ/library to try and recreate things.
I will say this, there are no rules, in my opinion. I’m sure every perfumer approaches perfumery differently. And that’s what makes our work all smell so different from each other, along with the infinite multitude of ingredients out there, of course.
It’s funny to me how slow the process of perfumery is because all I want to do is have fun mixing ingredients and experimenting to see what happens. In reality, I start with an idea and a clear vision for the fragrance, often with the name and possible ingredients already in mind.
Perfumery is all about planning and taking calculated risks. Sometimes you even break things based on curiosity, like overdosing an ingredient just to see the effect. For my saké accord, I overdosed Damascone Gamma by 10x. Then I had to create a damascone gamma replacer accord that was IFRA compliant because I wanted that 10x effect in the final fragrance.
Perfume is art. And this might be controversial, but there are no rules on how you make art! Except maybe allergens and IFRA compliance for everyone’s safety. My advice would be to always be curious. Ask yourself ‘What would happen if I mixed this with that?’ Sometimes a trace amount of something awful turns your formula into something beautiful. It’s counterintuitive, but it works!
It’s those nuances in perfume and life that make things unique and special, and that concept alone is the epitome of niche perfumery. Also, spend time learning your materials. That’s how you craft a vocabulary of ingredient descriptions, so when you want something creamy, for example, you can think of sandalwood, aldehyde c-18, iris, butter CO2…
There are so many materials that can offer you a sense of creaminess, but until you have those associations with materials, it will be hard to create what you want. That’s pretty much the first year of learning perfumery — at least for me anyway. Other than that, experiment and have fun!
That’s excellent advice. I feel like getting to know your raw materials thoroughly is akin to building your vocabulary. There’s no way around it.
How many raw materials do you have in your collection? And how many do you use on average for your formulas?
Hmm. I’m starting to lose count, but it’s around 400–500+ materials at this point — something that I did not amass overnight. It took around 4–5 years of acquiring more and more each year.
Every fragrance is different, and surprisingly, there are plenty of fragrances out there that only use a dozen or so ingredients. I like fragrances that have a more complex journey — ones that are well-blended. So, I typically use between 60–75 materials in my formulas.
There are some very polarizing materials like ethyl maltol (sugar candy smell) or the woody amber family with piercing and dry/woody smelling molecules like Norlimbanol and Amber Xtreme. What do you think about these?
I’ll say that every material has its place — by that, I mean a place of use within a particular fragrance. I seldom use ethyl maltol, but I don’t dislike it. As for the dry woody molecules you mentioned, I love them.
Okoumal, for example, is within the realm of your amber materials, but the effect it has on formulas is more of a gritty texture than a smell. Right now, I’m experimenting with Operanide, a newly available material by IFF. I’m really enjoying how it smooths out formulas while also giving the right amount of amber texture and sillage.
Just like fragrances, your appreciation for certain materials can change over time, whereas others are instant loves.
Operanide is great! I have some in my collection and am curious if I can make use of its purported mossy side, maybe as a bridge between a dry cedarwood profile and damp patchouli.
Now, imagine you are an odorant designer like Philip Kraft and could synthesize a new aroma molecule from scratch. Which novelty would you love to create?
That’s an interesting question and something that I don’t believe I’ve ever contemplated before. Some aromas that come to mind are coconut meat, natural wasabi root with its sweet profile nuances or Japanese honeysuckle — but those are attainable, or rather, recreatable.
I’d love to create the scent of outer space or something otherworldly, like cosmic wonder. Maybe the smell of an era or moment in time. I’m not sure, but your question definitely has me thinking about it now.
I admit the question is almost impossible to answer. It’s like asking someone to invent a new color. But ‘cosmic wonder’ really sounds like uncharted territory and an olfactory novelty only a new molecule could deliver. I imagine a wild mix of woody amber, tropical fruit, lily of the valley, and Hedione.
Let’s look into the future of perfumery. How will the industry look like in 2034, ten years from now?
Well, to your earlier point, new molecules are constantly popping up, making the palette for a perfumer evermore interesting and opening doors to new creative possibilities — endless ones at that.
We are definitely seeing growth in the perfume industry, specifically niche perfumery, and I’m happy to be included in that growth. I see it comparable to the craft beer movement here in the US, where your options are oversaturated and overwhelming but my god, there are interesting ones to choose from.
So, in 10 years, I only see more brands entering the market and ones that have been around only as an online presence possibly starting to open their own brick-and-mortar shops. Not to sidetrack but brands like Amazon have kind of tricked you into thinking that online shopping is the only path forward, when now their plans have expanded into, you guessed it, brick-and-mortar stores.
People crave that physical experience.
Getting perfume samples in the mail is great, but going into a shop and having the freedom to explore is a much more visceral experience. Like a kid in a candy store for us perfume lovers.
Did I give a window into possibly my own goals and aspirations? Maybe…
What a great transition to my last question: What are your future plans for Cult of Kaori?
Like many niche brand owners I have spoken with, the brand is not a main source of income yet. Unless you have an investor or huge backing, this is something that takes time to grow.
The first goal is transitioning into perfumery as the main source of income, unhindered by other duties and focused solely on the growth of the brand — it’s easy to dive in head first when you have that passion and excitement every time you’re immersed in the brand and its products.
I look at where I am, only four months after launching in Philadelphia and ScentXplore at the end of last year, and I’m already creating new partnerships with shops and retailers to better grow the awareness of Cult of Kaori.
I intend to expand the collection tenfold. Many fragrances are already completed, just awaiting their time to launch and shine. I intend to sell internationally and expand into a more global presence.
And like becoming a parent for the first time, I know I will learn a lot over the next few years, make mistakes, learn from them, and persevere with new paths as I grow.
Those are fantastic plans. With your enthusiasm for perfumery and the first successes that we can already see and smell, I’m pretty confident that you will achieve your goals. Thank you for this stimulating interview, Chris.
